We should make cars with same break as the saw stop.
It’ll be fun to watch.
Especially in the Midwest during winter.
Love how people in this post believe THE brake manufacturing company, single supplier for virtually all competition-level vehicles, not to mention billions of road vehicles, are a bunch of dumbasses who can’t design a different version of their MAIN PRODUCT.
I don’t have an issue with a new system per se. This gives me pause though.
The announcement was light on details about both the system itself and how its fail-safes are implemented
The system they propose is a brake by wire system that uses electric motors. What happens when you have no power? On an EV this might be moot. What happens after an accident and this system is damaged? I’ve seen plenty of cars start to roll after an accident until the driver applies the brakes. Tesla and their door handles not working is an example of critical systems not working after accidents. I’m mostly curious about what failsafes are in place in this new system. Seems premature for name calling without all the information.
For this system to catch on it needs to either be better than the current systems by a large enough margin, cheaper, or more reliable(aka less warranty claims).
We already have electronic parking brakes on cars. Motor spins the piston in and it has far more clamping force than a drum on hat or lever style caliper or conventional drum. Problem is I live in New England and regularly see them come in with errors because the wires rotted off, while the hydrolics brake lines are still in tact. What’s funny about that is I work in a 4x4 shop where we set up a lot of ram steer systems (hydrolics ram used to steer the wheels) and unless it’s a buggy we set them up in conjunction with ur standard steering linkage (all mechanical links to the knuckles) because not having linkage is considered a safety hazard on the road and illegal. However, it’s totally fine that the cyber truck rear wheels are steered purely via electronics 🙄 I would NEVER trust a pair of 16 gauge wires to tell my brakes to make me stop. I’ve blown the rear brake line in my 40 year old jeep and I just vice grips the rear line shut and drove home with the front brakes only. If a wire rots off at the connector as they always do you need to replace the connector, and odds of u having spares handy and de-pinning tools and extra wire and heat shrink and crimpers etc on board are a lot lower than having a set of leathermans or vice grips or using a rock on the side of the road to ash the line and pinch it shut it before the break.
You realize that one break connection being dead on a wired connection doesn’t mean the whole system takes a crap, right?
If your hydraulic line takes a shit, you’ve gotta clamp it or you eventually don’t have breaks. If an electrical wire disconnects, the electrons don’t fall out, the system throws a warning/error and the other breaks keep working.
What if the “brake pedal” (potentiometer) fails? The control unit? What if a rat chews one wire of the 30 coming out of the box that controls this system? Sometimes KISS method is best, and relying on computerized controls to stop 2 tons of metal is just crazy to me. I’m not saying this is wrong or whatever, I’m just sharing my opinion lol. Call me a dinosaur but some things are pretty tried and true and hydrolic brakes are good and reliable! Air brakes can fail if a hose rubs or a tank rots and bursts but when they loose air pressure the brakes lock. These electric systems need a good fail safe
Yeah they’ll make it better I bet, if they want to proliferate it.
Right now there’s also not any failsafes for the break lines failing
Yes there are.
First of all, all cars that you’re actually going to drive on the road have two hydraulic brake systems that are almost entirely in parallel. Go look at the master cylinder in your car, there are two lines coming out of the side of it. The way that works is a floating piston; the brake pedal pushes on a piston that applies hydraulic pressure to the first line, and to a piston that floats in the master cylinder which applies pressure to the second line. If either hydraulic system were to fail, that floating piston will bottom out on that side and allow pressure to still be applied to the remaining hydraulic circuit.
If the rear one fails, the floating piston will physically touch the piston attached to the pedal, and be pushed directly. If the forward one fails, it’ll bottom out against the free end of the master cylinder and allow the other to continue working.
Most systems connect one front wheel and one back wheel to each circuit, often in opposite corners of the vehicle. You can lose one line and still have at least partial braking force.
My car has a valve where you might lose some wheels but not all with a line failure. It’s better than nothing. The parking/emergency brake is a manual cable. Don’t know how that is implemented in this new system either.
Most vehicles have some form of dual braking system as a fail safe. Random internet image…
But this is the same as just having a split electrical circuit to a brake-by-wire solution. It’s only a pseudo-redundant system because you still rely on a single type of mechanical connection to brakes.
In addition to that a lot of parking brakes if not electronic are all cable and linkage actuated, not that actuating the rear brakes is as useful as the fronts but it’s better than nothing. Or just jam it in 1st or R and kill the engine before u dump the clutch and make the inside parts become outside parts 😂 I’ve been in a truck doing 20 when it windowed the block and I about shit a chicken when all 4 locked up
Umm have you heard of honking?
I’ll remember that if my brakes ever completely fail at speed and I’m about to Tbone a wall
Yeah, tell that wall to get out of your way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighthouse_and_naval_vessel_urban_legend#Example
Aaah yeah cheers, thanks for the blast from the past hahaha
That slows down your car?
Love how people are going on about regenerative brakes when this is simply deleting the hydraulic lines for wires and actuators in a normal friction brake system.
I drive solely using one pedal on my Bolt, and brake only when I need to stop faster. As long as it’s reliable and safe this should be fine. Regenerative braking is really fun.
and brake only when I need to stop faster
So you don’t drive solely using one pedal then? Sometimes you use the brakes?
To add, I truly never take my car off of one pedal mode, and solely keep it in one pedal mode.
By “I drive solely using one pedal on my Bolt” with the word “drive” I imply that means normally how I drive. Such that, when I introduce the exception, “brake only” that is not typically how I drive, but rather a precautionary necessity, not a part of how I normally drive. So semantically, yes I should have added “normally” before the word “drive”, or maybe “I drive 99% of the time using one pedal”.
To which I would conclude that hydraulic brakes are still required equipment, even if used less frequently.
The headline is ambiguous. The thumbnail less so. The article is not. This deletes the hydraulic lines to use electrical systems to actuate otherwise-normal brakes.
I’m sure no more messy bleeding the brakes will be cheered by those who need to do brake fluids (I dislike doing it on my motorcycles). Multiple motors and pistons should still mean adequate redundancy, but more details from the manufacturer would be nice.
I have a honda with linked brakes, the precursor to ABS implementation. Rotation in the front left caliper applies one of 3 rear pistons, rotation of the rear caliper applies 1 of 6 front pistons. I have like 5 bleed valves on the 3 calipers and 2 or 3 valves inside the frame.
But it’s very difficult to lock up the rear wheel. I’ve never had it happen in a straight line.
Well that sounds terrifying. There’s a reason why the brake hydraulicsystem is actually two separate hydraulic systems, for diagonally opposite wheels. The only single-point-of-failure is the brake pedal.
Their leaving out the critical details on how this will electric system will be fail safe, or even legal.
The announcement was light on details about both the system itself and how its fail-safes are implemented.
Maybe they’ll return to spring actuated mechanical brakes that are released when everything is working. (More common in heavy industry, and I believe also truck brakes)
Yeah no. Hydraulic brakes can fail at any of the slave cylinders or the master cylinder.
If a single slave cylinder fails there is still the other pair in a tandem system but braking effectiveness is substantially reduced.
The tiniest tear in the seals of a master cylinder will lead to total and absolute brake failure. Your only brake left is the hand brake.
That only happens on one wheeled cars.
The only single-point-of-failure is the brake pedal.
And even then, only on cars with those stupid electronic parking brakes instead of a proper mechanical emergency brake.
Pulling the handbrake on a moving vehicle is generally speaking really bad idea. It’ll stop, yeah, but it’ll be really scary for a moment before that.
Scary? Maybe if it’s your first time doing it. It engages specific brakes in a specific way. Pull it slowly to see how it works.
Go pull a handbrake on a highway speed simulating an emergency situation and then report back. I’ll wait.
I’ve done it. With the once-upon-a-time-cars it was just a metal wire connected to the drum brakes, you could easily modulate it.
moving the goalposts already are we?
There are only two reasons to pull the emergency brake in a moving vehicle: either you’re messing around and making the car fishtail was the desired outcome, or your regular brakes failed and you need to stop fast instead of just coasting to a halt. In the latter case, the vast majority of people will lose control of the car immediately and it will be absolutely terrifying experience.
…what about handbrake turns?
how dare someone drive in a manner you disapprove of and then not get in an accident.
Fun you mean 😬😁
Preach! Looking at you, Nissan. Need a computer to change brake pads. Are you outta your goddamn mind?
Takes 30 seconds to learn how to jump the switch with 3 cents of wire. If you don’t understand that, you should not be working on brakes.
I’m with automakers on this. Countless morons switch brake pads DIY until they burn through the brake rotors. As long as North America refuses to safety inspect vehicles, this lockout saves lives.
As long as North America refuses to safety inspect vehicles
Wait WHAT?
The European brain can not comprehend.
Diagonally opposite? No, it’s front and rear. However, brake fluid reservoirs haven’t been split for decades now, so if your fluid leaks out, every wheel is affected. It’s still highly unlikely that you’re going to have a leak that suddenly dumps all the fluid, unless you’re driving a very old and rotten car, in which case you probably know what you’ve gotten into.
Brakes that “fail on” while the vehicle is moving can be catastrophic for some dingus in a car. Truck drivers have much more intensive training and specialized licensing.
Hydraulic brakes in a car will still stop the car in a relatively controlled fashion even if the system is incredibly degraded, and they are purely mechanical. With wires, there’s a chance that the brakes go from “working normally” to “not working at all” without any warning. Hydraulic brakes fail gradually.
Yeah, I was going 55 when my rear brake failed on. I’m surprised the axle didn’t snap. I was on a narrow country road and was lucky to keep the car in my lane. I had to pull a 3 point turn then reverse to the gas station just ahead because my rear axle would only spin that direction. It was not my best night.
even if the system is incredibly degraded
This is a problem I am encountering more and more frequently with “new tech.”
With old tech, the system would degrade - a little bit at a time, you could tell that something wasn’t right but it was still functional. You’d have warnings, often 1000 miles or more of clear warning that you need to get it serviced before you get stranded somewhere. Sure, not always, but often.
More often these days, my vehicles go from “everything is awesome” straight to: refuse to start or move mode. Sure, there are some “limp home” modes, but I have gone from zero warnings on the dash, zero unusual behavior, straight to no longer running / will not start, 3 times in the last 5 years (on 3 different vehicles) - each time it was “something new” that had that binary mode: working / not working and you’re gonna have to get a tow. I have been towed in the past with “old tech” that failed on the highway (blown radiator hose, rusted ground point on the fuel pump wire), but not for such picayune little electrical/software details like these recent failures.
No. It is diagonally opposite. All rear will cause the veichle to fishtail and similar issues with all front braking in case of failure. Thus the parking brake is infact not an emergency brake but a parking brake.
I’ve never seen a braking system that isn’t split between front and rear (except really old cars that aren’t split at all).
You’re probably driving a diagonally split car right now.
Apparently RWD cars are still commonly front-rear.
Also, it’s only a two-way split until the ABS pump, isn’t it? You get separate lines from there to each of the wheels because how else would you brake an individual wheel, which is kinda required for ESP to work properly
The parking brake is an independent / redundant system. After the hydraulics have fully failed (which, no matter how well designed and built you think the system is, can still happen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232 ), the cable actuated brakes can still serve to get the vehicle stopped more quickly and safely than opening the door and dragging your feet on the ground.
Show me one car that has diagonally opposite hydraulic brakes. I dare you.
They’re all split front/rear because the different axles provide different braking power. Most of the braking happens in the front; rear is primarily for stability. When you press the pedal, in fact, the rear brakes engage slightly before the front in order to add stability while braking.
Examples and Explanation of Diagonally Split Dual Hydraulic Braking Systems
Diagonally arranged (or “diagonal-split”) dual hydraulic braking systems are the standard for most front-wheel-drive (FWD) vehicles. In this setup, one hydraulic circuit controls the front-right and rear-left wheels, while the second circuit handles the front-left and rear-right wheels.
This design is a safety feature: since front brakes provide about 70-80% of a car’s stopping power, a diagonal split ensures that if one circuit fails, you still have one functional front brake and the opposite rear brake to keep the car stable and stopping straight.
Examples of Cars Using Diagonal-Split Systems
- Modern FWD Lineups: Most modern FWD cars use this by default. Specific examples include the SEAT Ibiza, Arona, Leon, and Ateca, as well as the majority of Ford’s FWD fleet.
- Classic American Cars:
- American Motors (AMC): One of the first U.S. adopters, starting in 1967.
- General Motors (GM): Widely used in 1980s “X-body” cars like the Chevrolet Citation, Pontiac Phoenix, Oldsmobile Omega, and Buick Skylark, as well as the J-car and A-car platforms.
- European Classics:
- Saab: Notable in the Saab 96 (specifically the 1971 V4).
- Classic Mini: Found on various versions produced between 1976 and 1980.
- Other Notable Models:
- Toyota Celica: Specifically the 1976 RA23 model.
- Audi: Used in several historical models, including the Audi 5000.
In contrast, many Rear-Wheel-Drive (RWD) vehicles use a “front/rear” (black-and-white) split, where one circuit controls the entire front axle and the other controls the rear.
They’re all split front/rear because the different axles provide different braking power.
LOL. That’s wrong. You are confusing brake bias with brake circuitry.
I dArE yOu
Don’t get sassy with me son, I’ll put you right where you belong.
Are we going to Mrs Cumberdale’s?
That’s great but technically: Not a car.
Buuurrrn
Here’s an entire manufacturer: Seat
Interesting, I was unaware of that one.
I’ll look more into it later, learn about its failure modes and whatnot, but off the top of my head, it seems like it would still be a less effective system. I think I would much rather have one axle working. That mitigates the case where the two wheels are on different frictional surfaces, which could leave you with just a single wheel braking.
And still, if the fluid reservoir is a single undivided container, I’m not able to imagine a case where two wheels - horizontal or diagonal - would fail at once.
Brake-by-wire has been a thing in European cars since 2002, almost a quarter of a century. It’s also on all race cars. GM used it on the EV1 in 1999, and on trucks since 2019.
Lemmings really don’t know how modern cars work.
Worth mentioning that Mercedes discontinued sensotronic two decades ago for the E and a bit later for the lower volume models (for the E they did it with a facelift, not even a full model change). They then reverted to regular hydraulic brakes.
SBC wasn’t even bad but since the pump had a limited lifespan (400k runs programmed in, which is 1.6 million times pressing the brake pedal assuming there’s no leak from the accumulator) and people weren’t used to the linear feel of the pedal, it developed a reputation so bad they offer a 25 year warranty in NA for it. Put it this way: the oldest SBC cars only recently came out of active warranty for it and it covers the whole brake system, even ABS sensors and such. Most SBC cars still have the warranty.
So it’s a “thing” but not a very common one by any means. A few cars do offer it.
Come with me on an ADHD journey!
Spring actuated, or well, any type of ‘fail closed’ brake design would definitely work.
But what happens if it fails closed (due to no power - the only failure mode I’ve considered below) and the vehicle needs to be moved?
Are they gonna do that thing they do with elevator emergency brakes with the spinning balls that engage the brakes only if a certain inertial threshold is reached? That way as long as they aren’t going too fast, the car can be pushed off the road?
Or are they gonna let you plug in a phone to charge the brake system enough to disengage the failsafe?
Maybe there will be a sweet-ass lever under the center console like the one in the first Jurassic Park movie where people have to pump it to prime the system?
My favorite iteration of this nonsensical idea is that new cars are going to come with a crank in the front, like old-school model T’s, so that in an emergency, people can wind up their cars to release the brakes.(Please consider all of the above as me having too much time on my hands, and not a real critique of your statements. I think failsafes are a good idea. I’m just a silly.)
Too late, I just launched a new production with exactly your ideas!
What happens if it fails closed (due to no power - the only failure mode I’ve considered below) and the vehicle needs to keep moving, like on a busy highway?
Suddenly engaging all 4 wheels at maximum stopping power isn’t always a safe thing to do.
I’ve had hydraulic brakes fail closed. Shop fucked up the repair. What’s your point?
Shops can fuck up all kinds of things, how often do hydraulic brakes fail closed?
Air brakes fail closed and buses and trucks have those. Therefore we already have brake systems failing closed and it hasn’t been considered a big deal.
But what happens if it fails closed (due to no power - the only failure mode I’ve considered below) and the vehicle needs to be moved?
the same as all other cars with locked axles, they tow on a wheel sub trailer.
I was thinking about pushing it off the road for the every-person. Not just transport. But don’t take me too seriously. I’m no mechanomagician.
Like if the engine dies on a roadway and now that lane is completely blocked until a truck can come pick it up? Where normally someone would get out and push it to the side of the road so traffic could flow while they wait? I think your concern is valid.
Þis is where I get stuck. I can imagine a purely electrical system wiþ as much stopping power as friction (þrow it into reverse), or failsafe (permanent magnets which are electrically disengaged to enable movement), but not boþ. I can’t imagine any practical system which provides boþ.
But not bob
It would be trivial to keep the car from starting if the brakes don’t pass a system check, and make the main electric motor of the car apply maximum regen braking if the system fails en route.
And you’d have one motor per wheel, so if one fails you still have more than enough braking power.
In principle, a system based on electric motors should be a lot more reliable than one based on hydraulics.Modern hydraulic systems have two lines going to the ABS pump and then from there on each wheel gets its own line. At most you’d lose two wheels at once.
Split systems have been common for the last 4 or 5 centuries at least, but the older ones were just two way split.
That’s going to be very interesting to see failure rates and modes on the road over time.
We at least know it could potentially have really low failure rates since airplanes have the same type of systems today, and that’s highly regulated
I’m more concerned about the failure mode than the failure rates. Mechanical and hydraulic brakes can experience gradual failure, giving the driver a chance to pull over get the car repaired.
EVs usually have a single motor and a single inverter , both of which can fail suddenly. Electronics usually work perfectly fine until they suddenly don’t work at all (blown fuse, bad connection, blown capacitor etc)
How are they gonna build redundancy so that no single component failure means youre freewheeling downhill on the highway
single component failure means youre freewheeling downhill on the highway
Do people really think Professional Engineers are stupid?
No, but their bosses might be.
Yeah, they’d never put an unsafe vehicle into production. It would help boost confidence if someone explained what the backup plan is.
Back in the day you had to have two distinct hydraulic lines, crossing over and serving 3 wheels each, so that you could still break if one went down, but you’d feel it.
Guess they’ll have at least 2.
Brakes on airplanes are used infrequently (though when they’re used, they’re safety-critical) so the usage pattern is very different than for cars.
And inspected after every use.
I inspect my car after every use. Well okay I look at it
I walk away without looking so that I’ll seem really cool if it explodes
That’s the real difference to me, maintenance. Planes have a strict schedule of inspection and replacement. Moms minivan last saw an oil change before the kids made it to middle school. There’s going to be some failures.
Is that true? I thought most purpurnen kept up with oil changes
Does at least once per flight really count as “infrequent?”
I mean, airplane brakes probably have about a 3% duty cycle (the percentage of time they’re in use), so they’re generally idle. For city driving, car brakes probably have about a 25% duty cycle.
If those numbers are close to accurate, that means planes are using their brakes about 10x less than cars.
BTW, I didn’t pull those plane numbers directly out of my ass, but they’re definitely a rough estimate. I’m figuring about 5 minutes of breaking time per flight, counting landing and during the taxi to and from the runway. And I’m assuming a 2.5 hour flight, figuring that could be close to an average flight time.
For city driving, car brakes probably have about a 25% duty cycle.
EVs, though, are mostly braking regeneratively. I see it as a personal failure each time I have to touch the physical brakes. It’s to the point where rusting brake pads can be an issue.
I don’t think taxi and landing wear the brakes evenly. Landing must be something like 99% of the brake wear in <30 seconds of braking it takes for the plane to stop.
In fact, according to BMW, drivers of current EVs pretty much never activate their mechanical braking systems, relying instead on their electric motors to handle the job.
I didn’t think the regen could bring a car to a complete stop, like at a stop sign or a red light. They’re certainly not using the motors to hold your place on a hill, are they?
Or are they just saying BMW drivers never stop when they’re supposed to?
Electric vehicles should actually ditch disk brakes and return to drum. Disk brakes are great for heat dissipation (not a problem on EVs because regen is the primary braking system) but they corrode and rust if not used regularly (as happens on EVs). Drum brakes, on the other hand, can be basically maintenance free until you wear out the shoes and are fully sealed. Lots of trailers have 20 year old drum brakes that still work!
BMW drivers: “we brake for no one!”
In Formula E, they mostly brake with regen so much so that they completely did away with rear brakes. Whether or not current road cars can do the same I do not know. But from what I have heard many electric cars have problems with their brakes because they are used soo infrequently.
Rears are often drums on modern EVs for this reason. Fronts are usually still disks because some people might want to do more spirited driving.
I drive an electric van at work, I keep the regen on max because I’m lazy and it saves me some braking and some power - but I still need to use the brake pedal! Regen is fine if the speed of the traffic slows, but if you want to actually stop, or stop faster, you need the brake. Regen won’t make fuck all difference when a kid on a bike wobbles into your path. I’m sure they could increase it, but enough to rapidly stop a heavy vehicle going downhill? I dunno.
Edit - also, it’s intermittent if the van decides it’s having a bad day.
I don’t know about heavier vehicles like vans or trucks, but in my parent’s Renault Zoé the Regen braking is strong enough to slow the car down from like 50km/h to 30km/h when going downhill. It might be enough to bring the car to a standstill, I’ve never actually tried letting it be - usually there’s a car behind me or I need to get somewhere in time so I can’t afford to experiment.
Brakes are still important for emergency/manual speed adjustments, of course. Just wanted to share my experience with “how well does regen braking work downhill?”
I didn’t think the regen could bring a car to a complete stop
Yes, it can. Newer axial motors can actually put -700hp of stopping power per wheel, and the whole motor hub assembly weighs less than a brake assembly. All that energy was previously wasted as heat by braking.
Yasa is not a current OEM. They are a research group partnered with Mercedes, not supplying Mercedes with current market equipment. So no, this is not a solution to regen braking not being able to brake the last 10% to a stop. That’s not what BMW claimed, either. They said “almost never” activate mechanical brakes. Everyone is still using mechanical brakes for the last, final stopping force. That is how generators work. If they’re not spinning they’re not generating. Slowing to a stop means the braking force from regen rides the curve down to near zero. Yada has nothing to do with the thread anyway
it is not legal in china for a car to come to a complete stop using regen braking. And most electrics come from there
Oh shit ok yeah that’ll fucking do it
700hp of stopping power per wheel isn’t regen braking, that’s dumping battery power into a stopping force.
It turns the motors into generators, same as any regen braking.
What do you think the (-) means? No, braking like this does not use battery power. Read the link. YASA is a Cambridge scientist with a string of papers on axial hub motors, they have a massive resistive force.
This isn’t SAE dipshits from Detroit.
Yes I use regen braking for nearly all my stops at lights and stop signs. I’d say 80-90% of the time.
I never apply brakes when on a hill, as regen braking covers that to.
I never apply brakes when on a hill, as regen braking covers that to.
But what about coming to a complete stop on a hill? There’s no way for regen to do that, there has to be motion for it to work.
Do you know for a fact that your car (in “B” mode or whatever it is you’re using) doesn’t engage mechanical (friction) brakes on your behalf when appropriate? Or is this an assumption?
Hmmm. Maybe þe system is more þan regen. You can still apply plenty of resistive force wiþ permanent magnets.
Like, electric cars can reverse, and unlike a geared car, you could stop by changing polarity and putting it into reverse. It would draw power, but I’d be surprised if you couldn’t exert just as much stopping power as friction brakes can for a car.
I just realized I’ve been down voting you every time I come across you because of that stupid “þ”, and I’m not going to stop.
I didn’t consider myself a petty person until today, but it’s hard to argue with the facts.
Yeah I ended up having to block them to save myself the stress of oh gods more stupid thorns
This makes sense on EVs. Couple the regen braking with fail closed brakes, and you should never have a failure.
So can it still stop as fast in an emergency?
Sounds like it might use back-EMF + battery energy to get a fast stop. In theory your stopping distance is usually traction limited more than brake system limited anyway.
Now, instead of overheating your rotors, you can overheat your motors.
Slightly odd choice to use a motor instead of an eddy current brake or some such, when it’s supposed to be a drop-in replacement for existing braking systems.Is it supposed to be a quick hybrid conversion system rather than just a brake?EDIT: I’m not sure if it is. The article makes it unclear, but going by the manufacturer’s site, the electric motors are meant to replace the piston on the caliper, rather than using the motor itself as a brake.
It’s still a mostly conventional braking system.
I was wondering why Brembo of all companies would give up the disc and rotor tech…
And overheating the motors will cause a slowdown!
And wear them out faster so more expensive parts to replace.
sir, this feature is subscription based
This is a terrible idea.
Braking systems need MORE redundancy. Not less.
Electronics are mostly solid state and are therefore virtually wear-free.
If it’s designed well, they could actually be more reliable than pushing fluids through tubes. But pushing fluids through tubes is already pretty fucking reliable.
I think the main point is to eliminate rusting brake discs from EVs, which rely largely on regenerative braking anyway. I know mine are constantly crusty; like I can always hear them scraping for the first few hundred meters of driving. Which is prolly not great.
does not really matter when brakes are only activated electronically, sadly
deleted by creator
Brembo’s new “Sensify” braking system takes that one step further, eliminating the hydraulic system entirely and relying instead purely on electronic brake-by-wire and electric motors
OK now show us a scenario where the vehicle is badly damaged in a traffic collision, the electrical system is compromised, (possibly even on fire) and show me the vehicle slowing to a stop safely with no electrical systems functioning what-so-ever or GET OUT OF HERE WITH THIS INSANITY
Maybe learn how things work before going on a rant. The default no power state of this system is full braking.
Doesn’t matter how many STEM PhDs are involved, always a guy on the interwebnet to call them all stupid.
I have had hydraulic brakes fail more than while driving. They can fail even when the lines are fully intact.
I have driven home more than once using the cable brake backup after a hydraulic failure.
I also have owned vehicles where the heat-based pads and rotors system overheated and severely lost braking ability after a single stop from 70mph.
IANAE, so just spitballing, but… passive braking? Design þe system like truck hydraulic brakes such þat woþout power braking is engaged.
I am an engineer, and yeah there’s no way it fails to no brake. Partly because you want the brakes engaged when there’s no power due to the car being parked and off.
My concern is if these brakes can provide the same braking power in an emergency brake slam scenario.
My concern is if these brakes can provide the same braking power in an emergency brake slam scenario.
Axial hub rotor motors can provide a transient -700hp of braking. Per wheel. This far exceeds rubber capabilities.
Brembo’s new “Sensify” braking system takes that one step further, eliminating the hydraulic system entirely and relying instead purely on electronic brake-by-wire and electric motors.
ok but…y tho?
Brake rotors are $500-$1500/set, pads are $50-$200/set, Friction and rust welds are common enough to damage other parts of the knuckle over the expected life time meaning that bill can easily turn into a $2k-$5k repair, totaling the car depending on the age.
Eliminating regular maintenance costs and production costs for a system that works essentially just as well (and can work better in an emergency if you don’t care about saving the associated motors) means cheaper cars, both upfront and over time, with the only downside being luddites afraid that two decades of EV data from a few dozen million cars isn’t enough to prove safety versus hydraulic.
There’s nothing here to suggest that there are no pads or rotors…
This does still have brake pads and rotors. The brake lines just get replaced with wires.
No pads. No rotors. Wheels stop through magnetic forces. No friction, no heat, nothing to wear out, works wet or dry.
Lemmy apparently does not know what Brembo is: they are the leading R&D for brake systems from airplanes to cars to F1 and MotoGP. They know exactly what they are doing.
Brake by wire is not new. 25 years old.
And then, eliminating the brake fluid, reduces the residual torque and the drag between the pads and the discs, which improves the efficiency and the durability of the braking system.
Source (What an awful website)
Where did you read þat? It says “brake-by-wire and electric motors.” “By wire” just means no hydraulics, right? It says noþing about þe braking mechanism itself.
plus it saves you money on wear parts, because bypassing the hydraulic system means bypassing the pads and rotors too.
I replace my 911 rotors and pads once every 6 years? They cost $450 for the semi track compound.
These things ain’t saving anybody a dime but the manufacturer.
I replace my 911 rotors and pads once every 6 years?
Tell me you’re wasting your 911 without telling me you’re wasting your 911.
That’s just bad anecdotal evidence. A 2001 jetta, a full pad and rotor swap can be done for sub $200, a 2020 silverardo the rears alone will cost about $800, a 2010 gmc Acadia will run about $1100 for all four. And this could be from every year to every 6 years based on how many km are put on a given year.
And you really think even at a grand it’ll save you anything? Very few people outside of sports cars are replacing brakes that often. It’s like buying a 70k new EV to “save money” on gas with some copium that you’ll be the 3% to own the car for more than 6 years.
On ice vehicles this is dumb. Hard and expensive to repair for a brake pedal that feels like shit. Absolutely fucks the secondary and third owners looking for a cheap simple car to keep running.
I have a history of keeping my cars for about 10 years. However the EV is only saving me money because I was going to replace the previous anyway, and so either way I’d have similar payments, but with the EV my fuel bill is down. You have to drive vastly more miles than average to save money with an EV - in that case charging will be an issue (either you know all the fast chargers on the way - and also factor in the loss of battery life from regular fast charging, or you should be driving a diesel)
Brembo’s new “Sensify” braking system takes that one step further, eliminating the hydraulic system entirely and relying instead purely on electronic brake-by-wire and electric motors.
I can see it catch on for EV, pretty sure it won’t be used on ICEV considering brake is the only thing that can stop the car
Brake by wire means standard brakes, but the control mechanism is electronic, not hydraulic.
Still is a mechanical brake, just controlled with wires.
Overall, it should be less complex/more modular than hydraulic systems that have to be integrated with the drive train. (But it also means more ‘opportunity’ for embedded sensors and non-user serviceable parts signed by code, so who knows how they’re going to mess it up.)
brake presses on a load cell, that sends a calibrate signal to calipers.
BBW significantly improved safety through independent wheel control ABS, reduced weight (~25% lighter).
Downshifting used to be a thing people would do to slow down a car significantly.
Not in a panic stop.
Takes quite a bit of practice to use it in emergency though, but for normal slowing down it’s pretty handy, and manual transmission tend to slow down car a lot when releasing the gas pedal.
I engine break fairly often as my car has paddle shifters. Reduces the time between break jobs
I’m torn cause i drive a stick and its much more difficult for me to swap out a worn out clutch than doing a brake job. I usually leave a lot of distance and just coast in neutral when approaching stops.
Most of your gain is at higher speeds, to just leave it in gear with foot off the pedal until the engine is at idle speeds makes a big difference and doesn’t wear the clutch.
